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veecharlie

Ply shells glue vs paperglue curiosity

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Hello drummers,

I hope you don't missunderstand me. I am building my own kit, together with a drum luthier, however I recently went to a carpenter and asked him a quote for the job and I found out he was going to make the shells split in 2 parts and glued via a papermill glue instead of "woodglue". I selected the drum luthier just because he builds drums the whole day, but my question here is:

How does this papermill affect the sound instead of the typical glues used for drum building?

Also, I wonder what people thinks of a shell made out of two parts glued together?

I can't resist the curiosity lol.

thanks in advance

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Just clarifying some things...

You've gotten quotes from two people: a luthier, and a carpenter?  The luthier is a drum maker, and the carpenter is not?

The carpenter wants to use a papermill glue (I've never heard of that) and make the shells in two pieces?  Two pieces how?  Two concentric plies? (If so, how thick is each ply?)  Or two pieces as in two "shallow drum shells" glued end-to-end?  Or two pieces where the shell would have a vertical seam from bearing edge to bearing edge?

I'm assuming the luthier would be building a more traditional ply or stave shell kit, correct?

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Papermill glue is something used to splice enormous rolls of paper together so they don't have to stop presses when printing. Or, it can be the kind of glue used for layering paper used in concrete tubes, etc. It's an industrial glue with a special purpose. Laminating wood veneer into a drum shell? I don't know. I wouldn't use it without knowing its qualities.

Not enough info from OP on this two section process. Even trying to understand speedy asking about it is confusing.

I have made drums from purchased plywood shells, solid segmented block shells, solid stave shells, stacked plywood rings, PVC tubes, sono/3M (concrete) tubes, compressed veneer, and sheet metal, and the carpenter ... well, suffice to say whatever his plan is, it is out there. Unless he is going to try and take two halves of cosmetic pillars and glue them at the two seams or something. STOP! Turn around! Do not pass go, and run! Possibly using Gorilla glue (polyurethane glue) you can "weld" those seams together but, it just isn't something necessary when so many other supplies are out there to use for making strong cylinders. And cosmetic pillars are made to very lax standards so getting two halves to perfectly line up at the seams is dubious unless you have a lot in storage to choose from. That means sanding or another step to align the seams and that means chewing away a layer of veneer in the plywood ... .

I've never heard of a Drum Luthier. Luthiers are usually makers of stringed instruments like guitars and violins, etc. They do work with thin veneers so, is he going to glue veneer layers together? He'll need some serious pressure to affix the layers tightly.

Let us know how the project is progressing.

Edited by DiehardDIYer
  • Upvote 1

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20 hours ago, SpeedNinja said:

Just clarifying some things...

You've gotten quotes from two people: a luthier, and a carpenter?  The luthier is a drum maker, and the carpenter is not?

The carpenter wants to use a papermill glue (I've never heard of that) and make the shells in two pieces?  Two pieces how?  Two concentric plies? (If so, how thick is each ply?)  Or two pieces as in two "shallow drum shells" glued end-to-end?  Or two pieces where the shell would have a vertical seam from bearing edge to bearing edge?

I'm assuming the luthier would be building a more traditional ply or stave shell kit, correct?

I'm sorry I am confusing... I contacted a bunch of luthiers and carpenters and selected one guy to work along with me. Yea.. a drum luthier.. specialized in making drums, yea.

The carpenter wants to use the "paper glue" that comes very often with veneers and make the shell in two pieces... two pieces of 180° each (a semi circle)

yea the luthier would be building this in the traditional way

16 hours ago, DiehardDIYer said:

Papermill glue is something used to splice enormous rolls of paper together so they don't have to stop presses when printing. Or, it can be the kind of glue used for layering paper used in concrete tubes, etc. It's an industrial glue with a special purpose. Laminating wood veneer into a drum shell? I don't know. I wouldn't use it without knowing its qualities.

Not enough info from OP on this two section process. Even trying to understand speedy asking about it is confusing.

I have made drums from purchased plywood shells, solid segmented block shells, solid stave shells, stacked plywood rings, PVC tubes, sono/3M (concrete) tubes, compressed veneer, and sheet metal, and the carpenter ... well, suffice to say whatever his plan is, it is out there. Unless he is going to try and take two halves of cosmetic pillars and glue them at the two seams or something. STOP! Turn around! Do not pass go, and run! Possibly using Gorilla glue (polyurethane glue) you can "weld" those seams together but, it just isn't something necessary when so many other supplies are out there to use for making strong cylinders. And cosmetic pillars are made to very lax standards so getting two halves to perfectly line up at the seams is dubious unless you have a lot in storage to choose from. That means sanding or another step to align the seams and that means chewing away a layer of veneer in the plywood ... .

I've never heard of a Drum Luthier. Luthiers are usually makers of stringed instruments like guitars and violins, etc. They do work with thin veneers so, is he going to glue veneer layers together? He'll need some serious pressure to affix the layers tightly.

Let us know how the project is progressing.

This is what I wanted to hear.

I also found it weird and stupid to split the shell in half.

Glad I get some opinion about it! 

On how the "drum luthier" is going to make the shells, he will make them in the traditional way, for ply shells.

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No, you weren't confusing.  The carpenter is confusing.

10 hours ago, veecharlie said:

The carpenter wants to use the "paper glue" that comes very often with veneers and make the shell in two pieces... two pieces of 180° each (a semi circle)

That's what I thought you were getting at, but I didn't think anyone in their right mind would do that.  So... don't do that.

On 10/10/2017 at 3:19 PM, DiehardDIYer said:

Papermill glue is something used to splice enormous rolls of paper together so they don't have to stop presses when printing. Or, it can be the kind of glue used for layering paper used in concrete tubes, etc. It's an industrial glue with a special purpose.  Laminating wood veneer into a drum shell? I don't know. I wouldn't use it without knowing its qualities.

Thanks man.  I had never heard of it.  Definitely wouldn't use it unless the properties were acceptable.

On 10/10/2017 at 3:19 PM, DiehardDIYer said:

Not enough info from OP on this two section process. Even trying to understand speedy asking about it is confusing.

I confused myself no less than 4 times trying to type out those questions.  I almost attached a drawing to go with it.

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7 hours ago, SpeedNinja said:

No, you weren't confusing.  The carpenter is confusing.

That's what I thought you were getting at, but I didn't think anyone in their right mind would do that.  So... don't do that.

Thanks man.  I had never heard of it.  Definitely wouldn't use it unless the properties were acceptable.

I confused myself no less than 4 times trying to type out those questions.  I almost attached a drawing to go with it.

lolol.

Well.. apparently that kind of papermill is very common.. the only not common part is that is normally not used for drums... I guess it has a logical reason. I would think of strength and tone. But.. I have heard that SONOR and some other brands "glue" shells without any use of glue. So I'm now wondering.. did I discover the trick?

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6 hours ago, veecharlie said:

lolol.

Well.. apparently that kind of papermill is very common.. the only not common part is that is normally not used for drums... I guess it has a logical reason. I would think of strength and tone. But.. I have heard that SONOR and some other brands "glue" shells without any use of glue. So I'm now wondering.. did I discover the trick?

That seems rather impossible. If there was a way to extract or enact natural resins from the wood to hold the plies together but, veneer loses all it's natural resins in the manufacturing process. That's why it is so dry and brittle and has to be handled carefully. Even solid wood steam bent shells have to be affixed at the seam and various high strength glues are used. I'd like to know what can be used to make ply shells that isn't considered a glue. I need to investigate this. :scope:

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